[.Pearl.]
08-27-2007, 04:56 AM


These graphics are fookin' amazing. It took me quite a while to finally decide that these are the gameplay graphics, and not the movie graphics.
Square Enix is making their characters look more life-like each game! So, what do we think is next? Do we think that the graphics will continue to reach for a real-life look, or do you think they'll keep a more animated look just for the sake of keeping it fantasy-like?

Dragonsoul
08-27-2007, 07:13 AM
Yea the quality is great! It'll improve a little a bit(the future FF's) in the next few years of the PS 3 lifecycle also. The character will have a high quality resolution but their clothing will be fantasy like(or futuristic).

Buy me a PS 3!

silver rose
08-27-2007, 10:00 AM
The graphics are stunning.
The graphics will continue to reach for a real-life look(in my opinion)

Hynad
08-29-2007, 07:01 PM
I don't think they'll ever try the photo-realistic look again. There's some things the human eye hates, and real life human imitation is one of them. When you see such a thing, there is always bits of animations, textures, clothings, etc, that doesn't fit too well. Your eyes rebels against the imitation and tries to see details that are off. You saw that with Spirit Within (even if that was one heck of a piece of art), you see it in Spiderman and Superman Returns as well for example, and I'm sure you can understand why most Studios stylize their human models in a more anime or comic way (like Advent Children and everything Pixar). They use real-life looking textures and environments, but the models are exagerated in part so the eye dosn't rebels at the tiny details, derailing the attention of the audience.

Prak
08-29-2007, 07:12 PM
Kudos on introducing a wonderfully insightful dose of sense to this formerly woeful thread, Hynad.

Silfurabbit
09-01-2007, 05:35 AM
;867978'] fookin'

that would actually be "Fucking"

[.Pearl.]
09-07-2007, 12:22 AM
fookin'that would actually be "Fucking"

Yes, thank you, http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/7306/foto144nd5.gif

steambot159
09-07-2007, 12:25 AM
just wat i would expect from ps3

Jemeela
09-07-2007, 12:25 AM




-

Draven
09-07-2007, 07:35 AM
this is the reason i will get a ps3

Dragonsoul
09-07-2007, 07:46 AM
Everybody answer this question please...

Do you guys prefer the graphics in FF XIII or Lost Odyssey?

Both are great! The resolution seems high in both of them, but so far I like the actual "design" in Lost Odyssey a little bit more, off the top of my head. If I research this a bit more I'll know a bit more. Anyways, 2006 has FF XII, 2007 has BD and LO, and 2008 will have FF XIII(hopefully), and possibly FF V XIII!

EDIT:
This is the reason that I'm getting a PS 3 also! Also, I'm getting it for Final Fantasy Versus XIII also! I'm not sure if I'm interested in White Knight Story, The Last Remnant, or Disgaea 3. What other console exclusive top rpg's are coming out for PS 3?

Hynad
09-07-2007, 07:45 PM
I think Lost Odyssey looks good, but I kind of think it's rather bland looking compared to FF XIII (as far as first impression goes).

Other than that, LO's battle system seems to be a classic turn based one. A bit dated when it comes to modern gaming. But if DQVIII is any indication, a classic style can be successful if the game has the right balance in every aspect. But I can't help be feel it's a shame Sakaguchi is staying in the past as far as game mechanics goes. Nothing risky so far. Take Blue Dragon for example. Just a typical classic "RPG" battle system with great graphics patched to it. Still a good game, but not what I was hoping Sakaguchi would achieve on a next gen system. (To those saying the FF series will never be the same now that he's gone... I say that's a good thing. No sense in dwelling in the past forever! Just hope Nomura won't get to big a hold on the series. Screw those MTV "inspired" games.)

FFXIII on the other hand seems to be introducing a new battle system that is really intriguing to me. I hope S-E will reveal more info about it soon.

Let's just hope the story will be better, or if you prefer, more prevalent and emotional than the one from FFXII.

Ketevan
09-07-2007, 09:26 PM
I'm in agreement that the graphics look excellent but good graphics doesn't always equal a quality game experience. I'm more interested in the battle mechanics and story of the game.

Silfurabbit
09-08-2007, 04:21 PM
;874314']Yes, thank you, http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/7306/foto144nd5.gif

just making sure you werent one of those 10 year old momas boys that thinks swearing is a capital crime.

Zulu
09-13-2007, 12:03 AM
I'm in agreement that the graphics look excellent but good graphics doesn't always equal a quality game experience. I'm more interested in the battle mechanics and story of the game.
This happens to be my point of view as well. I certainly do not mind graphics that stunning, but I'd play FFV over FFX any day, just so you know what I'm saying.

Hynad
09-13-2007, 12:34 AM
This happens to be my point of view as well. I certainly do not mind graphics that stunning, but I'd play FFV over FFX any day, just so you know what I'm saying.

Truer words haven't been said often.

Trance Moogle
09-14-2007, 06:20 PM
Yes, those graphics do look pretty "fookin" amazing to me also. I would get the game but I don't have enough money for a PS3. I think the graphics will probably get better and more realistic later on but to tell you the truth, I think the graphics now are good enough for me. I guess I care more of how good I find the game to be then the quality of it's graphics.

ROKI
09-16-2007, 09:56 PM
Kind of offtopic but have you guys noticed where the list of atacks is, there are numbers to the right of the attacks? (Including magic and normal "Attack").
I hope it doesnt turn to be another Junction System case

Hynad
09-17-2007, 07:26 PM
Kind of offtopic but have you guys noticed where the list of atacks is, there are numbers to the right of the attacks? (Including magic and normal "Attack").
I hope it doesnt turn to be another Junction System case

I think it's a given that these numbers are in fact the cost in ATB points.

Raidenex
09-18-2007, 05:39 PM
I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but I read in an interview that the trailer was pre-rendered - not real-time graphics.

Not that I don't think the PS3 is capable of graphics like that, mind you - I'm hoping that it actually DOES happen, because i'd love to see a game that actually gets anti-aliasing right. Jaggies were supposed to disappear LAST generation, and PCs can do it, so why do I still see jaggies in my next gen games?

Also, as much as I was looking forward to Lost Odyssey, the latest trailer has made me lose a lot of interest. The cutscenes are amazing, but the 'in-game' graphics leave a LOT to be desired. They only look marginally better than a high-def FF12 =/

mac_mogul
09-18-2007, 06:26 PM
Thats what I was thinking. It just looks like a high-rez version of FFXII

Hynad
09-18-2007, 06:33 PM
I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but I read in an interview that the trailer was pre-rendered - not real-time graphics.

Not that I don't think the PS3 is capable of graphics like that, mind you - I'm hoping that it actually DOES happen, because i'd love to see a game that actually gets anti-aliasing right. Jaggies were supposed to disappear LAST generation, and PCs can do it, so why do I still see jaggies in my next gen games?

Source please?

I know the trailer to FF VS XIII is pre-rendered, but I followed the production of FFXIII pretty closely and I haven't seen anything mentioned about that.

I don't doubt it could be pre-rendered, but I would prefer reading the actual interview than to believe someone who read something god knows where.

[.Pearl.]
09-20-2007, 03:06 AM
just making sure you werent one of those 10 year old momas boys that thinks swearing is a capital crime.

Oh, well then that's okay. And I'm not; I just like changin' it up sometimes.

...off topic. =B

@ Raidenex: Oh really? What a bummer. Well, let's hope the step up and make the whole game look like that.

And yeah, graphics aren't a must (Katamari Damacy; simplest graphics, best gameplay), but you've got to admit they're a nice add-on. =D

Hynad
09-21-2007, 05:39 AM
Raidenex: Not to burst your bubble, but some new screens came out from the TGS. And guess what! The game looks as good as in the pics above.

Here:


FainaruFantaji
09-22-2007, 10:47 AM
I hope they wont try to make it photo-realistic, I don`t want them to get into a bankrupt again because Fantasy has to be Fantasy... I`ve seen too much of those HL people, what keeps FF a FF are the breath-taking graphics... The graphics filled with too awsome storyline make a real FF game... I`ll better die than see too real-looking FF characters... It`s just ugly to see the same through the window and in a video game...

Alvinz
09-30-2007, 11:13 AM
I read somewhere recently (probably Kotaku) that they are using 4 of the PS3's core thingies to achieve near CGI graphics in game. So awesome ^_^

Prak
09-30-2007, 11:27 PM
That would be false. The processor has almost no effect on graphics compared to the GPU.

Hynad
09-30-2007, 11:34 PM
Prak, you should read the thread I started about the PS3's "bad customisation".

Silfurabbit
10-01-2007, 01:14 AM
;882394']Oh, well then that's okay. And I'm not; I just like changin' it up sometimes.

...off topic. =B



one time i spelled shit "shitteh"

Jemeela
10-17-2007, 10:13 PM
I read somewhere recently (probably Kotaku) that they are using 4 of the PS3's core thingies to achieve near CGI graphics in game. So awesome ^_^

White Engine

Developer: Square Enix
Platform: PlayStation 3
Genre: Game Engine
Website: Square Enix's Global Website

The White Engine is an exclusive seventh generation game engine built to be used with "all of the [Square Enix's] forthcoming next-generation games" on the PlayStation 3, as commented by Final Fantasy Versus XIII character designer Tetsuya Nomura. The first games to utilize it will be Final Fantasy XIII and its spinoff title Final Fantasy Versus XIII. Nomura commented that the platform switching of Final Fantasy XIII from the PlayStation 2 to the PlayStation 3 was difficult, saying that "the hurdles are greater than they were in the move from the PS1 to the PS2." This in turn gave way to the creation of the White Engine.

One of the main aspects of the engine is that it allows photorealistic CGI to be rendered in real-time. Nomura has commented that the White Engine will be able "to recreate battle scenes reminiscent of Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children." It also handles advanced audio processing, cinematic cut-scene transition, physics effects calculations and special effects rendering. The White Engine reportedly uses 4 of the 6 synergistic processing elements (SPEs) that are available to games running on the Cell processor, to achieve near-pre-rendered CGI quality in realtime.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Engine

ROKI
10-17-2007, 10:32 PM
That means that they will look a lot into PS3's hardware. They may even master it at some point!

Hynad
10-19-2007, 03:25 PM
White Engine

Developer: Square Enix
Platform: PlayStation 3
Genre: Game Engine
Website: Square Enix's Global Website

The White Engine is an exclusive seventh generation game engine built to be used with "all of the [Square Enix's] forthcoming next-generation games" on the PlayStation 3, as commented by Final Fantasy Versus XIII character designer Tetsuya Nomura. The first games to utilize it will be Final Fantasy XIII and its spinoff title Final Fantasy Versus XIII.


FF Versus XIII isn't a spin off... just so you know. It is an entirely different game than FF XIII, and although they share the same digit, they are not connected together in any form.

FainaruFantaji
10-26-2007, 09:53 PM
But isn`t it true that FFvXIII takes place after FFXII?

Hynad
10-26-2007, 10:53 PM
As far as we know, S-E said in many interviews that the only things they share together is the vague mythology. What that means, I'm not sure (it might be the general FF mythology like Chocobos, Bahamut, Cid, and the likes...). They also said that the worlds and their stories weren't related together. They also added that all that might change somehow as the production progresses. But right now, as far as the news bits goes, the 2 of them aren't related to each others in any way other than the title. Versus being Nomura gaining the chance to make his own FF vision come true (hurray to the MTV fast-food generation!!!*sarcasm*).

But I'll be fair and give him the benefit of doubt.

tidusfan1
10-28-2007, 03:57 AM
well we just have to wait and see maybe im wrong but i think that in squares case anyway when a story gets to scifi the emotional aspect get kind of lost. I mean ffVII was a good game and all but the story didnt strike me as one of the more touching ones. ffXII isnt the best (but not the worst i like it a lot) but it didnt seem so concentrated on the technology and weapons they were using that i could feel sympathy for the characters. maybe its just from the screen shots but i see the main character as someone like squall but from the look of her friends so far i dont think they are enough to make her open up unlike squalls friends. but i could be wrong the graphics are great though and thats why i really want the story to compliment them as some people have complained spending more time on game play+spending more time on graphics= bad story but like i said i like ff12

Marshall Lee
10-28-2007, 06:36 AM
I had more fun replaying FFVI than I did playing FFVII-X. XII...is another matter entirely. The graphics are the eye candy, you can have the best graphics to date but if the story is shit then that is that. What you'll end up with is a big festering pile of emotionless shit that you spent about $40+ on. Great graphics do not induce great storylines.

tidusfan1
10-28-2007, 06:19 PM
that was my point i think they are paying more attention to graphics then story lately.

Hynad
10-31-2007, 01:17 AM
I don't think so. FF XII's story wasn't that bad. It was only badly paced because of the accent on gameplay.

The game was critisized a lot for that and I'm confident they'll improve the formula for XIII. As far as storytelling goes, I don't see how they did a major step-back. All the post SNES games had compelling stories, even if flawed at times (mainly for VII and VIII), but they still delivered the same quality of storytelling as far as I'm concerned.

FFXII had a really good story, but the many hours of "farming" in between the story events diluted it.

Now, just because one game in the series (not counting X-2) doesn't seem to be on par with what came before doesn't really warrant all these "accusations" that S-E have become more and more graphics whore than they actually are. There are just a few developers out there who manage to give the gamers the total package (great graphics+addictive gameplay+awesome music+compelling storylines) and S-E is still one of them.

But I do understand your worries about all that. Particularly since Nomura is gaining more and more freedom in the games he develops. And this guy is well known as being the "OMFG! More power=more coolness and coolness beats anything" kind of guy.

GT_Stevo
11-04-2007, 10:50 AM
Let it be known that I have not played FFXII, but have been present (a lot) when it's been played by other friends.

I think a lot of people didn't like FFXII because they were expecting this grandeur tale of good, evil, and a shit-ton of bad guy ass-kicking for destroying what the main character holds dear. Instead of any that, SE gave them FFXII, where a lot of people had trouble identifying with the characters... Especially Vaan with his Barbie doll-face and metro-sexual get up.

Shiva, Ifrit, and the rest of the usual summons gang didn't make an appearance. They were replaced with a slew of menacing summons that were seen in FFT (obviously because this is set in Ivalice). I don't know about you guys, but when I play a FF game and see a summon, I think to myself "I knew you when you were in FF-whatever. My, how you've grown over time."

Love for country, love for the sky, and love for the throne. The undercurrent of a love theme wasn't present (which is prevalent in all FF games). And if it was, I was either out getting oreos or I'm a real dunce and didn't catch on to it.

And in the end, you don't save the world, you save a city. Granted it's a big city, but it's not the world like so many of us are used to saving. That sense of accomplishment in the end is absent. Credits role and that's it.

GT_Stevo
11-04-2007, 11:21 AM
Oh, and on the Nomura thing, I totally agree with the above--that there's little emphasis on the story these days.

Under his direction, the graphics are nicely done, but at the cost of what's most important; the story. It's like he focuses on looks, then is like "oh shit, I forgot that it has to make sense! What was I thinking!?" Then along comes a re-release of Kingdom Hearts (dubbed Final Mix), exclusively for Japan. He may have well just called it "Kingdom Hearts: This is How it REALLY Went Down." How many times have we seen re-releases of games that are (not completely, but enough) different from the first release to make an impact? Take Xenosaga for example (yes, I know it's not well-liked). There's been a I, II, and III. Then along comes "Xenosaga I & II" that completely changes up/"fixes" the "broken story" elements.

tidusfan1
11-04-2007, 06:07 PM
i completely agree as for vaan i thought he was so strange looking in the game scenes but he was as cute as any other bishounen in the fmv scenes or as my friend said to me "you only like him cause he reminds you of tidus" well even if that is the case the fmv scenes were great. But also as someone who plays the american games I feel that i'm not getting the whole story. for example something like this could happen. Game gets released in japan, then 6 months later game gets released in north america, then 4 months later japan gets international final mix zodiac version. This game fixes any loose ends and adds more to the game and the problem is that us americans never get the game. Well great I don't feel like I did anything after 120 hours and in japan they get 4 more hours of cutscenes and have potion drinks that come with the game but at least the graphics were good. I hope now that they are staring to think about releasing at the same time that we will get these sort of releases also.

GT_Stevo
11-05-2007, 07:09 AM
It's just more of an incentive to learn Japanese. :-P

GT_Stevo
11-05-2007, 07:21 AM
I had more fun replaying FFVI than I did playing FFVII-X. XII...is another matter entirely. The graphics are the eye candy, you can have the best graphics to date but if the story is shit then that is that. What you'll end up with is a big festering pile of emotionless shit that you spent about $40+ on. Great graphics do not induce great storylines.

Back in the old SNES days, CG graphics and in-game voice acting was unheard of. Thus, we were forced to use something we've been using since childhood; our imagination. Those little game sprites were merely a foundation to start on. Our brains would fill in the rest of gaps for voice acting, etc.

In the newer FF titles, all of that has been taken care of. It's kind of sad in a way.

tidusfan1
11-09-2007, 11:22 PM
its not all that sad but its true I remember playing older games and wondering what they were thinking but I was around the playstation age way before they had cutscenes and voice acting though. But now you can play those same games on the psp with cutscenes and voice acting added.

GT_Stevo
11-10-2007, 02:53 PM
what's this PSP stuff? I just downloaded an SNES emulator and played the originals back in high school several years ago. The Snes9x emulator was more forgiving over the ZIP emulator.

tidusfan1
11-10-2007, 08:18 PM
I haven't done all of that to my psp yet I dont know why I suppose I usually prefer to play involved games on a console but I have spent a good amount of time on Valkyrie profile. I was happy to find the psp version cause I wanted to play it but a ps1 version costs quite a bit if you can find it.

gironimo appleton
11-20-2007, 08:51 AM
Final Fantasy isn't going to make their characters super realistic. It's not their style. Besides, I believe if the character models are made to be too realistic the series would feel too dark and grungy. I can see them going in the direction of Advent Children in their later games. I see huge environments with massive quantities of npcs who vary on interaction. I also see weather being incorporated, and cities so large that actual traffic is passing through... but this is just me.

MorgothErmis
11-20-2007, 02:32 PM




-

Is that a Sahagin

tidusfan1
11-25-2007, 03:38 AM
final fantasy seems to be getting more realistic in terms of story even though its still fantasy

Alvinz
12-01-2007, 08:28 PM
Final Fantasy isn't going to make their characters super realistic. It's not their style. Besides, I believe if the character models are made to be too realistic the series would feel too dark and grungy. I can see them going in the direction of Advent Children in their later games. I see huge environments with massive quantities of npcs who vary on interaction. I also see weather being incorporated, and cities so large that actual traffic is passing through... but this is just me.

They already tried photorealism with Spirits Within, and according to most sources it didn't go down too well due to the freakiness of things looking real but just not quite right.

chocobocloud
02-04-2008, 04:59 PM
Oh my god!!!she is so beautiful~~~

swordie
02-09-2008, 08:25 AM
hehe they still got alot of work to do...the spelled blizzard wrongly....

anyway bak to the topic!
yea the graphics is good better yet excellent but without great storyline the game would juz make people regret playing the game...lets hope it ff 13 and v13
comes in both packages!

[.Pearl.]
06-02-2008, 07:36 AM
Back in the old SNES days, CG graphics and in-game voice acting was unheard of. Thus, we were forced to use something we've been using since childhood; our imagination. Those little game sprites were merely a foundation to start on. Our brains would fill in the rest of gaps for voice acting, etc.

In the newer FF titles, all of that has been taken care of. It's kind of sad in a way.


Well said. I totally agree with you about the deprivation of letting people imagine that's happening. Voice acting can be nice, but it cuts down on reading (which I actually like to do in video games; more practice 'cause I suck at reading). Also, voices prevent the naming of your characters (which I miss dearly :[ ) and also thinking on your own how some names are pronounced: if FF7 had had voices, I would've died of annoyance listening to them say "Teefa" (for Tifa) the entire game.

Hynad
06-02-2008, 01:07 PM
Wait... how do you pronounce Tifa then?

[.Pearl.]
06-02-2008, 08:49 PM
I just always thought of it as short for "Tiffany" so I say it with the short "i" sound (TIH-fuh).

execrable gumwrapper
06-03-2008, 11:00 AM
The FUCK?!

DE GRANDE FREAK
08-22-2008, 01:09 AM
0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0. 0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0

Those are good graphics

Theta Sigma
08-23-2008, 12:58 AM
OMFG that looks sooooo bloody good!!!

aww, im getting a wii instead so i cant play it. *sob*

DE GRANDE FREAK
08-23-2008, 01:12 PM
Well, how would u like it if I gave away a PS3?

Theta Sigma
08-24-2008, 01:16 AM
well, youre probably in a completely different country.

Sephiroth206
08-24-2008, 01:25 AM
That could be a problem!!!

DE GRANDE FREAK
08-24-2008, 01:59 AM
I was born in the USA...does that help....Can i send it to one of ya?

Sephiroth206
08-24-2008, 02:15 AM
Why would u want to give away a ps3? It took me three years to get my ps2... don't get me started about the work to get an xbox260...

Sephiroth206
08-24-2008, 02:15 AM
I meant 360, my bad...

DE GRANDE FREAK
08-24-2008, 02:18 AM
?_? Were we talking about an Xbox360?

Sephiroth206
08-24-2008, 02:27 AM
No, didn't really have a point did it?

Sephiroth206
08-24-2008, 02:30 AM
No, sorry, off topic.

DE GRANDE FREAK
08-24-2008, 02:33 AM
Bad Double Poster! Punish him!

Theta Sigma
08-24-2008, 03:30 AM
im in australia, so no chance.

gironimo appleton
09-26-2008, 01:13 AM
guess i can safely up my post count here

gironimo appleton
09-26-2008, 01:14 AM
373 i want 375

DE GRANDE FREAK
09-26-2008, 02:33 AM
:{
You Have 377 post count now....

Hmm, I think I should Buy this GAME!

lordpablitochoa
09-29-2008, 01:19 AM
I'd like to play that game, I love the graphics ^.^

Ngrplz
09-29-2008, 01:43 AM
LOL these graphics don't look "Life like" at all.

They do look amazing and the attention to detail is astounding, however to call them realistic is a joke.

virtualchan
09-29-2008, 08:11 AM
The game looks great, but I wish there was a multiplayer component like baldur's gate or something, where you could play thru with your friends (correct me if there is one). It would surely add to the replay value and would help justify a 60 dollar tag, which in the current economic conditions is quite a bit to shell out for a game i might finish in like 2 weeks.

Prak
09-29-2008, 01:33 PM
The Japs are too backwards to put features like that in their games. The entire so-called JRPG genre is stuck in the stone age of game design. The only advancements they make are the equivalent of doing cave paintings with brushes made of bone and pubic hair instead of fingers.

avende82
09-29-2008, 02:29 PM
No doubt the game looks simply amazing. I certainly hope that the Final Fantasy series never tries to do the Sega-cd live action thing, but I wouldn't be surprised if someday we weren't playing a Final Fantasy game with graphics that rival the advent children movie from start to finish. A man can dream...

doomjockey
09-29-2008, 03:02 PM
The game looks great, but I wish there was a multiplayer component like baldur's gate or something, where you could play thru with your friends (correct me if there is one). It would surely add to the replay value and would help justify a 60 dollar tag, which in the current economic conditions is quite a bit to shell out for a game i might finish in like 2 weeks.

We MIGHT get something, but I'm not hopeful. You'd think in an era where interconnectivity can factor heavily into the game making process, it would be exceptionally stupid not to include some kind of multiplayer option. But looking at Infinite Undiscovery, I think Prak has a point on this one.

Good graphics, btw.

GT_Stevo
09-29-2008, 03:18 PM
...The only advancements they make are the equivalent of doing cave paintings with brushes made of bone and pubic hair instead of fingers.

I dunno, Prak... for cave paintings, they're pretty detailed. If you're comparing a JRPG to an ARPG, I dare say that Japan's a little ahead when it comes to storytelling, music composition, and graphics. If they lacking in anything, it's gameplay or replayability.


guess i can safely up my post count here

Cheating your post count? You are the epitome of shit.

Prak
09-29-2008, 03:33 PM
The things people refer to as ARPGs are usually just hack & slash games with an arbitrary stat progression element. If you're going to make a comparison, compare the Jap games to the best western games.

As for storytelling in those games, it's usually pretty basic stuff, more or less what you're likely to find in a mid-to-high-tier anime title. When you compare that element to the true western counterpart, adventure games, they pale in comparison. And of course, jap games cannot even begin to parallel the replayability of western RPGs.

It really is very obvious that Japan has fallen behind. They got too stuck in their ways and only polished what they already had instead of keeping pace with western innovation. Of course, they have a rabid enough fanbase that they can get away with it, which is a shame, but I basically hold JRPG developers on the same level of uselessness as shovelware developers.

Hawkeye_1138
09-29-2008, 08:10 PM
Sorry, ignore this post...

Hynad
09-29-2008, 08:44 PM
The Japs are too backwards to put features like that in their games. The entire so-called JRPG genre is stuck in the stone age of game design. The only advancements they make are the equivalent of doing cave paintings with brushes made of bone and pubic hair instead of fingers.

They are backwards... I wonder. Western developers have done a huge leap from where they were years ago, but they've already started to get in the same kind of corners as the Japanese did. Most western game developers are doing the same games over and over again, and it's now hard to find any real innovations in their games.

I hate the way you talk about them. When you say they are backward, I say they do different.

If all developers were doing FPSs, Baldur or Oblivion clones, then where would be the choice?

As for your remark on story telling, I haven't played a game with a really clever storyline since god knows when. All stories these days are pretty basic stuff, like you say. The major difference between one game an an other lies in the directional seat. And that is just a matter of opinion whether one is better than the other.

Prak
09-29-2008, 09:05 PM
Pity you never got that copy of The Longest Journey. Not only would it show you how deftly a story can be told in a game, but it would also show you how much the japs sacrifice with all their arbitrary take-turns-hitting-a-row-of-blobs tomfoolery when they could be telling stories in ways that move faster with less/no tedium.

Hynad
09-29-2008, 09:13 PM
Did you play any of the Tales games. It's not turned-based. Or games like Eternal Sonata, that gives turn based battles an interesting twist. Or maybe give the Star Ocean series a chance, and you'll find that although not an RPG in your sense of the word, it still has an interesting character growth system.

And don't worry, I'll get to play that game you mentioned one day soon.

As for story-telling, I guess it all depends on the pace you like a story to have. Games like MGS4 have a story told at a really fast pace, while games like FF XII are slower paced while maintaining focus on gameplay. On a personal note, I do prefer games built like Shenmue, Mass Effect and GTA IV, where the story is almost seemless in the gameplay (although Mass Effect and Shenmue do indeed take the NPC conversations a bit too far and they tend to get boring quite fast).

GT_Stevo
09-30-2008, 03:22 AM
You're right. The "Tales of" series was great and Star Ocean 3 was pretty epic. I don't care how much it's dogged because of it's story (which I happened to like), it's combat system was a lot more innovative than the standard turn-based RPG system.

Most JRPGs would be more liked if people could move around like he characters do in the cutscenes. One of the most disappointing aspects of Dirge of Cerberus was that Vincent was hopping around like Spider-man in all of the CG scenes, yet when playing him, you couldn't do ANY of that.

Prak
09-30-2008, 03:20 PM
I've come to the conclusion that the words "combat system" are anathema to progress in the gaming industry. We are rapidly approaching the point where truly free-form combat will be possible in video games, after all, which means that the only "systems" involved would be invisible things governing the basic rules of in-game physics.

The fact that "combat system" even remains in modern gaming's lexicon is entirely the fault of the Japanese. Compared to the western counterparts, most of their action games are rigid and restrictive. It amazes me that people still tolerate their crap. I can't tell whether it's because of ignorance or a fundamental inability to accept advancement beyond whatever their earliest gaming experiences happened to be.

Yes, I am denigrating pretty much the entire gamer demographic. And if you don't agree with me, your opinion doesn't count.

PerfectLibra
09-30-2008, 04:41 PM
Nothing like lighting a guy on fire and kicking him into a wall of spikes with almost cinematic precision - Might and Magic style :)

Hynad
10-01-2008, 04:03 PM
Prak, I say nonsense to your last remark.

You seem to expect every games out there to allow you life-like movements and possibilities or dream of virtual reality.

Your opinion is based on your own little need as a gamer. Not the need of every gamers out there. Some games are made to make you feel as if it was really you who was thrown in the action, while others take a more "third person" approach as if you were watching a TV show or a movie.

To say that one aproach is backward compared to the other is nothing more than an open statement on your part of your own preferences.


In the game of Chess, I wonder if you think it sucks that the horse cannot rush straight to the king instead of walking in this strange "L" pattern.

Game systems that are well implemented in a game give a structure that the players can learn to use to their advantages. Some players are smart enough to make good use of them, and will often consider it a flaw if they think it makes the overall experience too easy (we've seen this with many Final Fantasy titles for example). The problem is not that the games use a "system" per se, but that quite often these systems aren't used in ways clever enough for most of us, or that even if clever enough, the developers fail to deliver one that can have a long lasting novelty. Developers have to think a lot harder to find clever systems then in making everything life-like (which really revolve around the horsepower of the platform).



I personally don't want every games to play in first person mode with life-like realism in freedom of movements or physics.

I still greatly enjoy working my ways through the game's systems and mastering them.

After all these years, I still enjoy playing Chess.



In any case, you're wrong when you say the Japanese is entirely at fault when it comes to "battle systems". These systems are seen in just about every western RPGs. Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect, Oblivion, World of Warcraft, KOTOR, Fable, and even the (personally eagerly awaited) Fallout 3 have restricted Battle systems.

Prak
10-01-2008, 05:30 PM
I will acknowledge you as being partially correct about one thing. There's room in the market to have it both ways. However, it cannot be denied that the Japs (Nintendo excepted for obvious reasons) are the ones lagging behind and failing to advance the potentials of the medium. Every leap in technical capabilities is coming from the west. Surely you won't deny that it's wasteful for Japan, with its very different development philosophies, to ignore such progress instead of embracing it to create things that are truly new and unique? No one says they have to completely stop making the sort of games they do now. They just need to mix it up some to make a mark on the modern market and break their recent trend of stagnation.

As for battle systems, you are extremely wrong about several of the examples you listed. Mass Effect, Oblivion, and Fable (along with numerous others I can name) tend to be far more free-form in their combat than most other games. They're fluid, requiring constant motion and attention, with precision and timing being far more important to survival than whether you choose a melee attack or spell.

Hynad
10-01-2008, 05:52 PM
The difference being that they are real time instead of turn-based.
The timing of a spell or an attack is as important in a turn based battle system (a well designed one, at least) than it is in a real time one. The difference really is by the way the game is presented. Most games actually allow the same actions, but they present them differently.

In Mass Effect for example, you only control one character, but you pause the game to assign special actions to your teamates (which kind of feel a bit like FF XII, except for the "automatic" gambit you set).

I mentioned Oblivion because you seem to be waiting for the day RPG like this will be played as if you were put in some kind of virtual reality where every movements you perform will be represented in the game. Oblivion still has a basic move patern that is highly restrictive, unrealistic and repetitive, with sword swing paterns that are just hiding the fact that it's still the same as it was in Zelda (first of the name) where Link's sword swing was the same at every button press. Fallout seems to be getting around that somehow, allowing you to target specific body parts, but again using a "pause" screen that is part of its battle system.

Fable is a lot like Zelda when it comes to control, but you still can't jump or swing at your enemies legs to make them come at you slower for example.

The controls might be intuitive and fluid, which is always a plus, but in no way are you more free than in a regular turn based game.

I understand though where you are coming from. I too like games where the action is faster and involve more reflexes, but some other times, I just feel like taking it relax working my way through a good turn based system.

Prak
10-01-2008, 06:08 PM
Did you not process it when I said we were nearly to the point where truly free-form combat would be possible? I never said those games had perfected it. They're just making moves in the right direction.

Hynad
10-01-2008, 06:15 PM
Didn't you process when I said you were as restricted in those Western games you so adore?

It's still more of the same. The envelop makes it seem like it's different.


We might be nearly to that point you mention, but The western developers aren't really doing a better job to achieve it.

Games like Mass Effect give you the impression that you have a lot of freedom and choices, mainly because they put NPC dialogs in fragments (that the japanese would give you in one or two straight "chat box"), let you explore tons of planets that are most of the time useless unless you're at the right point through the plot, let you choose the appearance and gender of your character, etc...

More of the same, just a different coating.


Sure those details improve the immersion, if your need is to be "disconnected". But in no ways are the western "systems" any different from what we've been fed the last 2 decades.

Prak
10-01-2008, 06:23 PM
And would it still be more of the same if you could swing a sword in various directions and do damage to whatever specific body part you happen to strike? That's the next logical step, after all. These games already allow for headshots and body hits to do more damage than if you strike a limb, so we're halfway to that point already.

As I said, it's still progressing. When it reaches the inevitable conclusion, there will be no similarity.

Hynad
10-01-2008, 06:40 PM
You mean like in games like Resident Evil, House of the Dead, Silent Hill, Lost Planet...


All Japanese games.


That step might be right at the corner, but who knows who will take the next big step.



I don't know why you seem to dislike Japanese games so much. My guess is that the "coating" of their games tend to be more colorful/cartoon-like and less realistic. That would be a generalisation that works for pretty much all the western gamers of late.


So I wonder. Do you dislike all or most of the game that comes from Japanese developers (except for the games from the Big N... of course)?

Prak
10-01-2008, 06:48 PM
If you're going to factor in games where shooting is the primary mechanic, then those have been going that far for ages. I was focused on games with more flexibility in their gameplay designs, which, I admit, was a failing on my part, but ultimately an inconsequential one.

Hynad
10-01-2008, 06:59 PM
In all honesty, I have to admit that the JRPG genre of late haven't been moving forward much. At the same time, I personally feel that the western developers haven't made such good work moving forward either.

Objectively, I see innovative stuff coming from both sides, from time to time. Do they always fit my tastes? Of course not. But I'm glad these developers are at least trying, even if they often fail. It shows that they want to push the format further.

But in no case do I see any of these sides taking over the other. Both are currently relatively stagnant right now (and have been for years) and when they make steps, they're baby ones.

It doesn't really help that a game now nearly costs the same as a summer bluckbuster movie. But with the current gen's development tools made available for small designers, we're now seeing a new wave of innovation that can only help push the stagnant "systems" currently in place.

PerfectLibra
10-02-2008, 01:50 AM
After playing WoW for four years - and other real time based RPGs - I can't go back to turn based. What are some other games that brought me to this conclusion? FFXII / Star Ocean / Dark Cloud / Valkyrie Profile (more of a hybrid but no where as stilted as the older FFs). All JRPGs. Of course - there are WRPGs that brought about this change. Diablo / Fable / Mass Effect and others. Now Prak is right - there are more WRPGs that don't follow the super linear path a lot - if not most- JRPGs follow. Xenosaga anyone? But that is the culture. If more people in Japan craved real time battles with a non-linear plot then the developers would make it. How many Japan based game companies put out hard hitting first person shooter games? I honestly can't think of any. So when does come out - it may appear to be backward coming from a culture, like America, where people go ape shit over Halo.

virtualchan
10-18-2008, 11:42 AM
^i agree, its not like halo actually sold well enough for japs to think they could make a profit from like-minded games...

I think a lot of our anger is mainly pointed at Square, which has (to me) become a Completely commercial entity...they continue to make the same sorts of games b/c enough ppl buy them for the company to make a fair profit...and if its not broke why fix it? Obvious example is the 13 port to 360 to increase profits.

when i think of final fantasy, chrono cross/trigger, kingdom hearts, i think its the same game with just different artwork..and as mentioned above ppl just continue to consume it

Hynad
10-18-2008, 02:28 PM
Virtualchan, I challenge you to find any corporation that isn't in the market to make profits.


Take Bioshock... It went on the 360, shortly followed by the PC and then the PS3. It's a logical way to go, and any sane developer should take the same route. As long as the user install base warrants it.

The rest of your comment is ignorant at best, so I won't bother replying to it.

All Seeing Eye
10-18-2008, 09:48 PM
The Japanese culture is different from American Culture. The video games reflect that. The only difference today is that possibly for the first time western style video games are on equal footing with Japanese style video games.

I remember a time when a certain number of people would only play western video games, like certain people would only use Apple products. The rest would play the nintendo's and the sega's and so forth.

Right now, with computer technology, western games could surpass Japanese games in innovations, but the Japanese culture is proud and will still stick to their style of games. Microsoft knows this, that's why they are buying a lot of Japanese video game developers, to capitalize on the market. It's working so far. At the TGS, the Xbox 360 booth was packed for the first time at one of those shows.

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