topopoz
02-07-2011, 01:57 AM
I've recently rediscovered WRPG with KOTOR II TSL, I played the 1st one in a long time ago & tried the sequel but I saw at first glance the improvements but I couldn't bring myself to play it backthen because I hate to play a sequel without having finished it's previous entry...

And I hated many things of KOTOR I that I quitted the game at the Manaan part because I had enough of the over-the-top cliched dialogues & the poor storyline that came from an excelent idea.
The gameplay was just OK, not a big fan of it's engine, I don't found it so brilliant, though the face expressions are the best among all the WRPG's that I played.

Then I picked it up again & brought myself to finish the game & I'm finally playing & Enjoying KOTOR II TSL & it's quintessencially the best WRPG that I've ever played.

Bioware is the most acclaimed WRPG company these days (at least that's how I see it) & yet I think they're not close by a one bit to be as the popularity says IMO.
From their library of games I played these games:

Neverwinter Nights
KOTOR
Jade Empire
Dragon Age Origins

All I can say is that they only repeat the formula by changing the setting, In my eyes KOTOR is NWN in SW universe, Jade Empire the same but in Asia & DAO is almost like an Updated version of that game, put a few tweaks in the gameplay & you have what Bioware games are.
I haven't finished NWN but at first look I can safely say that I'm not that far from the truth.
Now I haven't played Mass Effect, but I heard that it's their best game so far, I will play it though so I can give a better judgment.

I also played some other WRPG's among those I played, The Elder Scrolls III & IV and Fallout 3, I didn't liked them I think that they're just games that offer you freedom to do whatever you like, other than that I don't see anyother good feature & consider them pretty hollow games.
I couldn't get myself to enjoy them & the gameplay of those games aren't responsive enough for me, even though they're realtime & think that KOTOR is much better at bringing thrill & action.

I also played Vampire The Masquerade Bloodlines but having played White Wolf's original Tabletop game, I fail to see this game to bring me to the experience of a Vampire module & I thought many things regarding it's gameplay were handled horribly.

Now I was greatly interested on playing Fallout I & II and Planescape: Torment and I did try them but I just hate Baldur's Gate's & Fallout's Engine :S
And I know that the storyline of these games are great, but I can't get to play them because of that reason.

I also wish to play NWN 2, I know that it's developed by Obsidian & that enough for me to try it, though it doesn't look like a fun game.
Alpha Protocol is another Candidate, but it's bugs & the words that spread that in technical terms the game is pretty much a chaos because It doesn't function properly is holding me back from trying it.

I want you to give me an opinion & thoughts about this, I'm really enjoying KOTOR II & now that I have the Restoration Content Mod for the game I think that I'm getting a enhanced experience for the game.
If you are interested on the Mod go here. (http://deadlystream.com/forum/topic/240-tslrcm-17-released/)

I'm getting a little more interested on WRPG having this kind of experince. So...

Thoughts?

Darth Revan
02-07-2011, 05:14 AM
Personally speaking, I think that WRPG's are more implied for mature gamers when compared to JRPG's myself.

Knights of the Old Republic II The Sith Lords is a great game, though it was released with a LOT missing. The restoration pack does add extra content to make it a more complete game, unfortunately for those who have it on Xbox, they miss out on the restoration pack. Which is a shame imo...

Dragon Age: Origins/Awakening, played more like the old AD&D tabletop RPG's (as more or less ALL computer RPG's still follow the precepts from the late Gary Gygax's creation.) and the return to an fantasy style game, for me, was a welcome change when compared to other RPG's at the time.

Jade Empire, though short, reminded me a lot of the campy Hong Kong Martial Arts movies. Very fun game, and with some great voice talent (John Cleese as Sir Roderick Ponce von Fontlebottom the Magnificent Bastard; made memorable to me, as when you fight him his cry of "Bloody Hell!" gave me a chuckle).

Mass Effect... Yes, this is my favorite game series and yes it does have it's faults, just like every other game. The story is top notch and the voice talent (as with all BioWare games) is brilliant. A good scifi drama rpg... though I know that there'll be a few people here who may fault me for that. Still, you can't please everybody.

Speaking of not pleasing everybody... Fallout 3 and The Elder Scrolls IV Oblivion. They are good games... but I just couldn't get into them at all. Oblivion DID interest me a bit... and yes I'm hoping The Elder Scrolls V Skyrim is good... but the fourth installment bored me.

I still prefer the old AD&D Dungeons and Dragons PC games... pity SSI is no longer around. Made great games they did.

Vrykolas
02-07-2011, 05:29 AM
It's always the same with Obsidian - if their games actually worked the way they were intended to, all their stuff would be 'Game of the Year' contenders!

As it is, they are for my money, the company with some of the very best writers in the industry, but with highly questionable technical staff. I think it's purely a case of not having the money to do justice to their ambition, and not commanding the amount of influence necessary to secure such support (a lot of big companies like Lucasarts and Sega have shafted them royally in a way they would never do to a bigger company).


As to WRPGs in general, I find that a lot of these games' popularity depends on how much people get invested in the atmosphere of the various game worlds. Because in many cases (Oblivion and Fallout 3 being two good examples), the worlds feel very atmospheric, but are actually quite lacking when it comes to main plot, and truly interesting side quests and characters etc.

The lack of strong main plots (or at least, decent story driven side quests), can cause me to lose interest very quickly. There's only so much looting and savenging in ruins that I can take, before I want something a little more substantial. The greater integration of the main plot into the side quests is a primary reason I prefer New Vegas to FO3.


One thing WRPGs do often have is great voice acting. I can listen to Malcolm McDowell's President John Henry Eden, all the live long day in Fallout 3. The Enclave are pretty sinister, but his voice is extremely soothing and comforting, even though you know its all propaganda.

Smarty
02-07-2011, 02:16 PM
BioWare do repeat themselves a fair bit as far as storytelling goes. Especially when it comes to characters. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but sometimes it's difficult to make them, well, not bland. Usually, they do a good job with sticking to what they know and still keeping it interesting and fresh.

Now, I have a lot of respect for Obsidian. It takes some serious balls to release betas as retail games. Seriously, though, if they just bothered to make their games work, everybody would love them. If not before release, just do it afterwards. Alpha Protocol still hasn't gotten a (much, much needed) patch, and New Vegas only got one because of how popular it was. I don't know how these things work, but

I don't mind the gameplay in games like these (except for Mass Effect 2's "improvements", which I really didn't appreciate). There's always enough new elements to keep me interested.

I've never played an Elder Scrolls game, but Fallout 3's atmosphere is top notch. It's a shame that the main plot is so awful and it would have been significantly better as game if it had better writing.

By the way, please do try out Mass Effect. I can't think of another WRPG in recent years that I've enjoyed more.

Aniki
02-07-2011, 02:57 PM
Now I was greatly interested on playing Fallout I & II and Planescape: Torment and I did try them but I just hate Baldur's Gate's & Fallout's Engine :S
And I know that the storyline of these games are great, but I can't get to play them because of that reason.

You could at least give Baldurs Gate 2 a chance. Just pretend that it's Dragon Age except you can't move the camera.

Also

Witcher?

topopoz
02-07-2011, 03:25 PM
THE WITCHER! How could I forget that game, I didn't played it myself because I needed to update my hardware, probably I can play it now.

I did try it in a friends house & the game looked awesome. Thx Aniki, I'll probably try Baldur's Gate 2 as well.

Smarty I will try Mass Effect too, I was always interested in that game only that my Experience with BioWare made me back off a little.

Revan, DAO is a fine game, there's nothing really wrong with it, but it wasn't suprising to me, It was just an Okay game for me just like KOTOR 1.
I didn't liked Jade Empire one bit, I was so dissapointed that you couldn't imagine, because I really wanted an RPG with some real Oriental flavor, but sadly the dialogues & the characters were far worse than KOTOR 1 to me.

Vrykolas & Revan I understand you completely regarding Elder Scrolls & Fallout 3, to me Bethesda only creates a GTA RPG's in a medieval setting, really, the only way I had fun with their games, was by just making chaos, playing "by the rules" or trying to do the main quest just made my yawn at the screen & for the sake of having fun by wrecking stuff there are other games that accomplish it's purpose in a better way.
The only thing that I really enjoyed was exploring in Morrowind, you can appreciate how much effort they've putted on creating the world & the beautiful Scenery.

Vrykolas
02-08-2011, 02:04 AM
Money is the key factor that is holding Obsidian back. To make cutting edge graphics, and catch all the glitches in the kinds of complicated game they make, you need big teams of extremely talented people.

As for the post-production work, a lot of that is down to how much money it will cost to fix the various issues, versus any potential reward. The fact is, there simply isn't much profit in fixing such issues, unless it's a game you expected to have protracted sales, which are being hurt by such bad press.

As disappointing as it is, money does make the world go round. These companies can't make their games for free. Modern games cost unbelievable amounts of money to make, just to get an acceptable product, let alone a knockout one.

Look at Bioware - their games were glitchy and (at least until ME1) were generally considered to be pretty ordinary in terms of their looks. Even ME1 which had noticeably better graphics had endlessly repeated maps, screen tearing etc etc.

Then along comes EA with a big bag of money and voila! Silky smooth running and great graphics.

But Obsidian have great writers (the best in my opinion), and that is a resource that is keeping them afloat and keeping them in work. It is surely a testament to their skills in this area that games like KOTOR 2 and FO: New Vegas have very vocal fans (who will proclaim both games to be better than their direct predecessors), despite the well known glitches and problems.


At the end of the day, faced with the choice of a polished, smooth running but utterly soulless and/or badly written game, versus a game with glitches that doesn't look like a millions bucks, but which interests me and absorbs me into its world, I'll take the latter every time.

topopoz
02-09-2011, 12:50 AM
At the end of the day, faced with the choice of a polished, smooth running but utterly soulless and/or badly written game, versus a game with glitches that doesn't look like a millions bucks, but which interests me and absorbs me into its world, I'll take the latter every time.

Well that's my problem with WRPG in general, most of my experience with them is that they're Soulless, from my point of view, but not just on terms of the writting.

I can't find a balance between gameplay & storytelling in WRPG (Except for The Witcher, KOTOR II & Diablo Series).

Fallout I & II and Planescape: Torment, games that had great story, but the gameplay it's booooooooooring to me, 10 mins to kill a fucking rat, okay it's an exageration, but I'm not far from the truth.
And in games like Morrowind nothing felt at stake for me.


I don't know if I'm expressing myself properly.

Tanis
02-09-2011, 01:21 AM
I dig not enjoying the game play, I used to be huge into dudgeon crawlers...but as of late - eh.

But I do play 4X games...so I'm used to things talking a long ass time.

topopoz
02-17-2011, 02:29 AM
People!

What can you tell me about, Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura?

Tanis
02-17-2011, 03:31 AM
If you don't like Fallout or Baulder's Gate...not gonna like it.

Aniki
02-19-2011, 03:47 PM
People!

What can you tell me about, Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura?

As Tanis said if you don't like those games then you won't like this one either. But, you should give it a try if you enjoy games with interesting setting that have a good story. Also, there a recruitable characters who's based on Prak.

topopoz
02-21-2011, 01:49 AM
*sigh*

Well... I'll see what I can do. :S

Thanks anyway :D

Tanis
02-21-2011, 01:52 AM
IF you're going to try it, get the 'Good Old Games' version - unless you can find the physical discs.

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